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	<title>Comments on: Can non-profit organizations meet all the needs for-profit businesses currently meet?</title>
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	<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/</link>
	<description>The blog is about alternative economics and the book I am writing about my economic ideas.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 20:17:36 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Stephen Monrad</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1896</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Monrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1896</guid>
		<description>Tom P.

My background is in economics. I don&#039;t have expertise on specific tax issues. In this post, I am asking high level questions about the plausibility of having non-profit organizations do the work that for-profit organizations normally do. 

I&#039;m sorry I don&#039;t have any specific advice to offer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom P.</p>
<p>My background is in economics. I don&#8217;t have expertise on specific tax issues. In this post, I am asking high level questions about the plausibility of having non-profit organizations do the work that for-profit organizations normally do. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry I don&#8217;t have any specific advice to offer.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Petragnani</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1887</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Petragnani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1887</guid>
		<description>HELLO STEPHEN 
I&#039;m Not sure it can be done.
Please consider this for us your insight and assistance is vital.

Tiles for Smiles  is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the advancement of Children with Cerebral Palsy. Our purpose is to provide   schools, religious and other charitable organizations a resource to expand their fund raising activities by producing  engraved tile, stone and any other product that can assist their efforts and financial growth. Through the production and sale of specialty craft items, and participation in local craft events, we will raise support, awareness and funding. Our intention is to grow to enable a greater level of financial assistance for local and national therapeutic centers along with organizations that support Children with Cerebral Palsy.

We are currently in our final stages with the IRS in consideration of our 501 tax exempt status and question 13 goes just like this - 
Please explain how granting exemption to would not provide an unfair advantage by operating as an exempt organization, over for-profit competitors. Competition with commercial firms is strong evidence of the predominance of nonexempt commercial purpose for determining weather an organization can be classified as tax exempt. And if the conduct of a business with apparently commercial character is a taxpayer&#039;s sole activity the fact weighs heavily against exemption. 
All officers are non-compensated (volunteers) as we are a volunteer organization. 

Any opinions on this would be very much appreciated.
THANK YOU
Peace
Tom P.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HELLO STEPHEN<br />
I&#8217;m Not sure it can be done.<br />
Please consider this for us your insight and assistance is vital.</p>
<p>Tiles for Smiles  is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the advancement of Children with Cerebral Palsy. Our purpose is to provide   schools, religious and other charitable organizations a resource to expand their fund raising activities by producing  engraved tile, stone and any other product that can assist their efforts and financial growth. Through the production and sale of specialty craft items, and participation in local craft events, we will raise support, awareness and funding. Our intention is to grow to enable a greater level of financial assistance for local and national therapeutic centers along with organizations that support Children with Cerebral Palsy.</p>
<p>We are currently in our final stages with the IRS in consideration of our 501 tax exempt status and question 13 goes just like this &#8211;<br />
Please explain how granting exemption to would not provide an unfair advantage by operating as an exempt organization, over for-profit competitors. Competition with commercial firms is strong evidence of the predominance of nonexempt commercial purpose for determining weather an organization can be classified as tax exempt. And if the conduct of a business with apparently commercial character is a taxpayer&#8217;s sole activity the fact weighs heavily against exemption.<br />
All officers are non-compensated (volunteers) as we are a volunteer organization. </p>
<p>Any opinions on this would be very much appreciated.<br />
THANK YOU<br />
Peace<br />
Tom P.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Monrad</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1168</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Monrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1168</guid>
		<description>Dave

Interesting points. I agree that non-profits are able to effectively do many things. Your examples in health, education, and insurance are good. 

I don&#039;t understand why you think a For-profit sector is necessary. I don&#039;t see any particular reason a non-profit couldn&#039;t deliver luxury goods. The people wanting the luxury goods would just have to pay the cost of producing them. 

Non-profit doesn&#039;t mean non-revenue generating. It just means no profits being distributed to owners or shareholders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave</p>
<p>Interesting points. I agree that non-profits are able to effectively do many things. Your examples in health, education, and insurance are good. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand why you think a For-profit sector is necessary. I don&#8217;t see any particular reason a non-profit couldn&#8217;t deliver luxury goods. The people wanting the luxury goods would just have to pay the cost of producing them. </p>
<p>Non-profit doesn&#8217;t mean non-revenue generating. It just means no profits being distributed to owners or shareholders.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1166</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1166</guid>
		<description>So long as there is a &quot;free&quot; market, you will not be able to do away with the For-profit sector.  You could do away with the Non-profit sector, but the Non-profit sector necessarily depends on there being a For-profit sector.  Imagine trying to start a Non-profit with the mission to deliver luxury &quot;X&quot; for all the people or animals in &quot;Y&quot;.  The supply of funds just would not be able to support the demand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So long as there is a &#8220;free&#8221; market, you will not be able to do away with the For-profit sector.  You could do away with the Non-profit sector, but the Non-profit sector necessarily depends on there being a For-profit sector.  Imagine trying to start a Non-profit with the mission to deliver luxury &#8220;X&#8221; for all the people or animals in &#8220;Y&#8221;.  The supply of funds just would not be able to support the demand.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1165</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1165</guid>
		<description>I think the conversation only comes down to whether enough people would see a value in funding &quot;X&quot; Non-P versus purchasing from &quot;Y&quot; For-P.  So the organization&#039;s operation is to produce/manufacture toothbrushes for all the needy children of the world, yadah, yadah, yadah...  meets the IRS codes, yahdah, yahdah, yahdah...  and sells toothbrushes to a market in direct competition with all the other toothbrush manufacturers.  Can it operate efficiently and effectively to produce a product and service perceived to be of enough value to stay in business?  So long as the government isn&#039;t running it and creating a monopoly, then this concept is already a reality, i.e. charitable hospitals, private religious schools, even insurance companies like the Knights of Columbus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the conversation only comes down to whether enough people would see a value in funding &#8220;X&#8221; Non-P versus purchasing from &#8220;Y&#8221; For-P.  So the organization&#8217;s operation is to produce/manufacture toothbrushes for all the needy children of the world, yadah, yadah, yadah&#8230;  meets the IRS codes, yahdah, yahdah, yahdah&#8230;  and sells toothbrushes to a market in direct competition with all the other toothbrush manufacturers.  Can it operate efficiently and effectively to produce a product and service perceived to be of enough value to stay in business?  So long as the government isn&#8217;t running it and creating a monopoly, then this concept is already a reality, i.e. charitable hospitals, private religious schools, even insurance companies like the Knights of Columbus.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Monrad</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1144</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Monrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1144</guid>
		<description>ClydeB

I am interested in non-profit producers for two reasons. 

First, from the consumer&#039;s perspective, profits increase the cost of a good. The money paid to shareholders comes straight out of the customer&#039;s pocket. It&#039;s a cost. All else being equal, if a company wasn&#039;t trying to earn a profit, it could lower its prices. If there was a way to get producers to work efficiently without bribing business owners, we would be better off.

Second, in my grand design for a better economy, I need to connect the cost of goods and services to the labor and raw materials used to produce them. If businesses are allowed to maximize profits, this connection is difficult to make. It would simplify my story if the for-profit sector could be dispensed with. I can work around this problem, it just takes more fancy footwork.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ClydeB</p>
<p>I am interested in non-profit producers for two reasons. </p>
<p>First, from the consumer&#8217;s perspective, profits increase the cost of a good. The money paid to shareholders comes straight out of the customer&#8217;s pocket. It&#8217;s a cost. All else being equal, if a company wasn&#8217;t trying to earn a profit, it could lower its prices. If there was a way to get producers to work efficiently without bribing business owners, we would be better off.</p>
<p>Second, in my grand design for a better economy, I need to connect the cost of goods and services to the labor and raw materials used to produce them. If businesses are allowed to maximize profits, this connection is difficult to make. It would simplify my story if the for-profit sector could be dispensed with. I can work around this problem, it just takes more fancy footwork.</p>
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		<title>By: ClydeB</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1141</link>
		<dc:creator>ClydeB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1141</guid>
		<description>This entire discussion ltterally begs the question &quot;Why&quot;. It is diffcult enough to form, develop, start and sustain a legitimate for-profit business with pristine goals. Why on earth would anyone go through all that with no hope of a rewarding success as the desired outcome. 
Certainly some not-for-profit organizations are successful, the Red Cross is an example. Most struggle for survival and depend on going hat-in-hand to benefactors on a regular basis for sustenance. 
Do you have the notion that profit is undesirable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This entire discussion ltterally begs the question &#8220;Why&#8221;. It is diffcult enough to form, develop, start and sustain a legitimate for-profit business with pristine goals. Why on earth would anyone go through all that with no hope of a rewarding success as the desired outcome.<br />
Certainly some not-for-profit organizations are successful, the Red Cross is an example. Most struggle for survival and depend on going hat-in-hand to benefactors on a regular basis for sustenance.<br />
Do you have the notion that profit is undesirable?</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Monrad</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1140</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Monrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1140</guid>
		<description>Stephen,

It seems like the answer has to be &quot;from government&quot;, but that&#039;s not really an answer since the government isn&#039;t really a thing in itself.  Really, we would need everyone in society to chip in, either directly or through taxes, with no expectation of return for their money.  Long-term, they may benefit from cheaper goods &amp; services if they are customers of the non-profit manufacturer.

Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen,</p>
<p>It seems like the answer has to be &#8220;from government&#8221;, but that&#8217;s not really an answer since the government isn&#8217;t really a thing in itself.  Really, we would need everyone in society to chip in, either directly or through taxes, with no expectation of return for their money.  Long-term, they may benefit from cheaper goods &amp; services if they are customers of the non-profit manufacturer.</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Monrad</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1138</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Monrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1138</guid>
		<description>Eric.

I think you and I have reached the same conclusion. It&#039;s possible to set up a non-profit manufacturer. The question is where to find the startup money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric.</p>
<p>I think you and I have reached the same conclusion. It&#8217;s possible to set up a non-profit manufacturer. The question is where to find the startup money.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Monrad</title>
		<link>http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/economicsidea/can-non-profit-organizations-meet-all-the-needs-for-profit-businesses-currently-meet/comment-page-1/#comment-1137</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Monrad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 20:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stephenmonrad.com/blog/?p=406#comment-1137</guid>
		<description>Stephen,

Most of the discussion so far has been about the &quot;social mission&quot; of non-profits.  I don&#039;t think this is applicable for what you&#039;re talking about.  And since you&#039;re not targeting special tax treatment, is there any reason that the structure of current businesses can&#039;t work?

In Ken&#039;s blog, you raised the idea of the &quot;rich nut&quot; who wanted to start a non-profit brewery.  I don&#039;t see any barriers to him doing that on his own as a sole proprietorship with the intention to not take any money out of it.  Profits could be set aside in a reserve fund or else re-invested.  And he could tweak the prices up and down to target a net break-even.

Similarly, other business structures could be set up with charters that require the same sort of thing.  

The trick then, as you noted, is finding the initial investment money.  

Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen,</p>
<p>Most of the discussion so far has been about the &#8220;social mission&#8221; of non-profits.  I don&#8217;t think this is applicable for what you&#8217;re talking about.  And since you&#8217;re not targeting special tax treatment, is there any reason that the structure of current businesses can&#8217;t work?</p>
<p>In Ken&#8217;s blog, you raised the idea of the &#8220;rich nut&#8221; who wanted to start a non-profit brewery.  I don&#8217;t see any barriers to him doing that on his own as a sole proprietorship with the intention to not take any money out of it.  Profits could be set aside in a reserve fund or else re-invested.  And he could tweak the prices up and down to target a net break-even.</p>
<p>Similarly, other business structures could be set up with charters that require the same sort of thing.  </p>
<p>The trick then, as you noted, is finding the initial investment money.  </p>
<p>Eric</p>
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